Comments on: Sad but True http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/ designs stuff and writes code. Tue, 07 Sep 2010 09:08:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Burrell http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-101504 Burrell Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:44:06 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-101504 I was just reading the scenario and your responses to it. Everyone has some great points regarding this matter. I myself had experienced it recently and I was totally beside myself. I had to tell my client that he needed to come to a decision on how he wants his design to look or I would have to suspend the project. If you are dealing with organizations, make sure that you only deal with one person in that organization that will handle their side of the specific project their organization wants. When you have too many people involved, it only means too many perspectives, opinions, critiques, which never allow you to find close to the work and move to the next endeavor. I agree with the edit fee...not so much as to make more money off the client but more as a deterrent from clients potentially keeping you in this ongoing loop which takes up valuable time and energy. Whether 5, 10,15,30 or hour of your time is being used up, if that time was not contributing to the closure of a specific project, then you need to make worth your time by charging extra. Just my thoughts. I was just reading the scenario and your responses to it. Everyone has some great points regarding this matter. I myself had experienced it recently and I was totally beside myself.

I had to tell my client that he needed to come to a decision on how he wants his design to look or I would have to suspend the project.

If you are dealing with organizations, make sure that you only deal with one person in that organization that will handle their side of the specific project their organization wants. When you have too many people involved, it only means too many perspectives, opinions, critiques, which never allow you to find close to the work and move to the next endeavor.

I agree with the edit fee…not so much as to make more money off the client but more as a deterrent from clients potentially keeping you in this ongoing loop which takes up valuable time and energy. Whether 5, 10,15,30 or hour of your time is being used up, if that time was not contributing to the closure of a specific project, then you need to make worth your time by charging extra.

Just my thoughts.

]]> By: michael http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-416 michael Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:44:08 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-416 Boy, are you asking for trouble starting a design with so little direction. Until you get some better guidelines you could fall into a bottomless pit of comps. Been there. Done that. Once. The name "Awesome Designer" should be "Not quite ready for prime time Designer". Design chops may be there but the business chops ain't. If a client wants you to make up a design with no more input than edgy, run away, run very far away, very fast or write a *very* specific contract. It's okay to say no to potential clients. It's okay to say that each comp after the first two will cost extra. Require a spec sheet. Make your potential clients (notice that I keep saying potential) fill out a pre-design questionaire. The funny thing is that the more specific and detailed your proposal or contract, the more professional you will look, and the more the client will trust you. Ask your potential client to provide you with at least 3 URL's to sites they like and 3 more to sites they don't like, both with specific reasons why. That should give you enough to get a pretty good idea what her/his tastes are. Write up your ideas in the spec sheet, and get it signed *before* you start. If the potential client balks, chances are very good that you will enter the Twilight Zone and never escape. BTW, cool preview. Boy, are you asking for trouble starting a design with so little direction. Until you get some better guidelines you could fall into a bottomless pit of comps. Been there. Done that. Once.

The name “Awesome Designer” should be “Not quite ready for prime time Designer”. Design chops may be there but the business chops ain’t.

If a client wants you to make up a design with no more input than edgy, run away, run very far away, very fast or write a *very* specific contract. It’s okay to say no to potential clients. It’s okay to say that each comp after the first two will cost extra.

Require a spec sheet. Make your potential clients (notice that I keep saying potential) fill out a pre-design questionaire. The funny thing is that the more specific and detailed your proposal or contract, the more professional you will look, and the more the client will trust you.

Ask your potential client to provide you with at least 3 URL’s to sites they like and 3 more to sites they don’t like, both with specific reasons why. That should give you enough to get a pretty good idea what her/his tastes are. Write up your ideas in the spec sheet, and get it signed *before* you start. If the potential client balks, chances are very good that you will enter the Twilight Zone and never escape.

BTW, cool preview.

]]> By: VinnieVincentBaby http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-414 VinnieVincentBaby Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:13:23 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-414 Clients are the worst of all people, but the worst of the worst are those who think they know how to design websites. Most probably because they've taken some or another basic art class 5-6 years ago. They tell you what they want, then you make it. Then they go "Hmmm. Hmmm. Hmmm. Well, maybe, you know, that color. Yes. I like that color, but wouldn't it be better if that color was green? And maybe if the design is a bit more round (even though I told you I wanted a completely squarish kind of design and blue)." Then they decide to tell you all about the art class they took in 1988 which is another 5 hours of wasted time. I've had potential clients whom I've given a price that's way too high for what they're asking for because I've known that they'd be trouble to scare them of. Though you don't know for sure before you've actually taken the assignement. I ask clients to come up with a good description of what they want along with photos, posters, flyers and other things they might have from before. If they take too long to come up with this I bill them before I even start. I had a client that used 2-3 months before he even looked at the site I had made him, I'd bet he'd be a lot more eager to see it if he already had payed for it. Hooray for the clients! Clients are the worst of all people, but the worst of the worst are those who think they know how to design websites. Most probably because they’ve taken some or another basic art class 5-6 years ago. They tell you what they want, then you make it. Then they go “Hmmm. Hmmm. Hmmm. Well, maybe, you know, that color. Yes. I like that color, but wouldn’t it be better if that color was green? And maybe if the design is a bit more round (even though I told you I wanted a completely squarish kind of design and blue).”

Then they decide to tell you all about the art class they took in 1988 which is another 5 hours of wasted time.

I’ve had potential clients whom I’ve given a price that’s way too high for what they’re asking for because I’ve known that they’d be trouble to scare them of. Though you don’t know for sure before you’ve actually taken the assignement.

I ask clients to come up with a good description of what they want along with photos, posters, flyers and other things they might have from before. If they take too long to come up with this I bill them before I even start. I had a client that used 2-3 months before he even looked at the site I had made him, I’d bet he’d be a lot more eager to see it if he already had payed for it.

Hooray for the clients!

]]> By: Elliot Swan http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-410 Elliot Swan Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:07:18 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-410 You definitely have to realize that most of the people you're dealing with don't know much about design, just sort-of what they want. What's annoying is when they claim they don't know what they want, then they say they do, then change their mind after you do it for them. And no, you can't blame them for not knowing what they want. But you can't let them steal your time, either. They should get what they're paying for. Now unless the said client is some big corporation, chances are they can't afford to pay you to mess around until they finally figure out what they want. So why not pass the "messing around" off to the client, and let them figure out what they want? Like Oliver said, let them look through templates and sites and tell you what exactly they do and don't like about each one. Send them a questionnaire, so that they are forced to really think about what it is they want. Once they give you all that information, then you can start designing making sure everything is clear in writing so that you don't start doing more than you're getting paid for. In the end they'll get something they like and can afford, without you wasting your time. In theory, a win-win situation. In theory, of course. I've heard of people doing things like this before, though I have yet to try it...Anybody have any experience with this? You definitely have to realize that most of the people you’re dealing with don’t know much about design, just sort-of what they want. What’s annoying is when they claim they don’t know what they want, then they say they do, then change their mind after you do it for them.

And no, you can’t blame them for not knowing what they want. But you can’t let them steal your time, either. They should get what they’re paying for. Now unless the said client is some big corporation, chances are they can’t afford to pay you to mess around until they finally figure out what they want.

So why not pass the “messing around” off to the client, and let them figure out what they want? Like Oliver said, let them look through templates and sites and tell you what exactly they do and don’t like about each one. Send them a questionnaire, so that they are forced to really think about what it is they want.

Once they give you all that information, then you can start designing making sure everything is clear in writing so that you don’t start doing more than you’re getting paid for.

In the end they’ll get something they like and can afford, without you wasting your time. In theory, a win-win situation. In theory, of course. I’ve heard of people doing things like this before, though I have yet to try it…Anybody have any experience with this?

]]> By: Isaac http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-409 Isaac Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:25:39 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-409 Ya, but like Oliver Z said, "You cant blame them." I think thats one of the biggest downfalls of a lot of webmasters, they think "Oh I understand something, all my webmaster freinds understand something, all my clients should understand this." However that is most certainly not the case. However you are right, when you ask someone a direct question they should give you a direct and full answer. Ya, I would defenetly say if you're going to get anoyed if they do something like that.. tell them up front what your contract consists of. Ya, but like Oliver Z said, “You cant blame them.” I think thats one of the biggest downfalls of a lot of webmasters, they think “Oh I understand something, all my webmaster freinds understand something, all my clients should understand this.” However that is most certainly not the case. However you are right, when you ask someone a direct question they should give you a direct and full answer. Ya, I would defenetly say if you’re going to get anoyed if they do something like that.. tell them up front what your contract consists of.

]]> By: James Mitchell http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-408 James Mitchell Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:12:09 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-408 I have ran into my share of situations like this. I have taken a hard line stance now and use the following: 1. I make sure I have all details upfront. No details = No deal. 2. Built in they get minor revisions (text, colors, stylesheet type changes), anything above and beyond that I consider major revisions and they are billed hourly. Clients are told this upfront and I am very fair and honest with them. If it is a 'major' change that takes me 5-10 minutes I am not likely to bill them. Use your discretion. 3. For higher priced jobs consider a payment schedule, clients who already have a stake in it are more likely to give you the information you need far faster than those who pay upon receipt. While this doesn't work for every client, 50% down and 50% upon completion works well for jobs up to $1000. I prefer 1/3 down, 1/3 at midway revisions, and 1/3 upon completion for jobs that are $1000 or more. 4.. Bill what you are worth. If at the beginning you can tell that this client may be one like described above then do not be afraid to bill them more, make it worth your time. You do not have to justify it to them or even let them know it. Remember you are the designer, it's your skills and techniques they want. Those are just a few of my techniques I have started to use and have found you truly start getting things moving the way you want them and not just at the mercy of those who hire you. I have ran into my share of situations like this. I have taken a hard line stance now and use the following:
1. I make sure I have all details upfront. No details = No deal.
2. Built in they get minor revisions (text, colors, stylesheet type changes), anything above and beyond that I consider major revisions and they are billed hourly. Clients are told this upfront and I am very fair and honest with them. If it is a ‘major’ change that takes me 5-10 minutes I am not likely to bill them. Use your discretion.
3. For higher priced jobs consider a payment schedule, clients who already have a stake in it are more likely to give you the information you need far faster than those who pay upon receipt. While this doesn’t work for every client, 50% down and 50% upon completion works well for jobs up to $1000. I prefer 1/3 down, 1/3 at midway revisions, and 1/3 upon completion for jobs that are $1000 or more.
4.. Bill what you are worth. If at the beginning you can tell that this client may be one like described above then do not be afraid to bill them more, make it worth your time. You do not have to justify it to them or even let them know it. Remember you are the designer, it’s your skills and techniques they want.

Those are just a few of my techniques I have started to use and have found you truly start getting things moving the way you want them and not just at the mercy of those who hire you.

]]> By: Elliot Swan http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-406 Elliot Swan Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:37:37 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-406

Or come up with a “creative” way to “deal” with the client.

Maybe before taking on a new client I should ask them if they read Dilbert, and if they find it funny.

If they don’t get the humor then chances are they are one of “them.” :P

]]> By: karpa-diem (Jake Garrison) http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-405 karpa-diem (Jake Garrison) Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:07:50 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-405 Make it clear that you own the copyrights to each comp. Then, you can always try to sell or reuse the rejected ones. Or come up with a "creative" way to "deal" with the client. :) Make it clear that you own the copyrights to each comp. Then, you can always try to sell or reuse the rejected ones.

Or come up with a “creative” way to “deal” with the client. :)

]]> By: Oliver Z. http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/comment-page-1/#comment-404 Oliver Z. Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:19:56 +0000 http://www.elliotswan.com/2006/01/29/sad-but-true/#comment-404 I guess you can't really blame them -- they don't know what they want. If you are designing layouts, show them already made sites and let the clients say what they think about them. It doens't take time to compose a draft, and it gets the clients where you want them. In the end, make something similar to the site that the client really likes. It's not really ripping, since technically you are inspired by what the client likes. I guess you can’t really blame them — they don’t know what they want.

If you are designing layouts, show them already made sites and let the clients say what they think about them. It doens’t take time to compose a draft, and it gets the clients where you want them. In the end, make something similar to the site that the client really likes. It’s not really ripping, since technically you are inspired by what the client likes.

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